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Wakefield Beach
10-14-2013, 09:34 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-14-2013, 09:35 AM by doondog.)
#1
Wakefield Beach
Hello, I'm a new user here and I have enjoyed reading about Wakefield Beach on this site as a former owner of a unit there and in recently considering another purchase,,,,,,,,or was anyway until reading much of what was posted hereSmile. I may have some additional specific sales data as to the actual selling prices of many of the units in Phase 2 and will see if I can retrieve this information from my own file obtained while appealing property assessments if anyone wants to contact me in this regard. It is a beautiful development with some very peculiar strata management issues for each individual strata corporation that ultimately chased us away from enjoying our own home there. I too am not certain where the price points will settle in at moving ahead especially seeing so many of the homes now actually vacant and having used ours as a principal residence just how few others actually did with most being a recreation property for them especially the detached oceanfront bungalows.
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10-14-2013, 09:53 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-14-2013, 10:06 AM by Skook.)
#2
RE: Wakefield Beach
doondog, welcome to VanPeak!

As a former owner, your experiences at Wakefield Beach and what you have and can share with us is invaluable and we thank you for it. Please, by all means feel free to post in the Wakefield Beach thread that I have started at anytime if you would like to expand on what you have written so far or build on what I have written to date. If there is any info that needs to be corrected, please do not hesitate to do that, too...LOL Big Grin Those actual selling prices would be interesting to see and if you are able to post them there, that would be great.

It is sad to read about your strata management experiences - it's a big roll of the dice and so very few seem to function well.
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10-14-2013, 11:56 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-14-2013, 12:45 PM by doondog.)
#3
RE: Wakefield Beach
(10-14-2013, 09:53 AM)Skook Wrote: doondog, welcome to VanPeak!

As a former owner, your experiences at Wakefield Beach and what you have and can share with us is invaluable and we thank you for it. Please, by all means feel free to post in the Wakefield Beach thread that I have started at anytime if you would like to expand on what you have written so far or build on what I have written to date. If there is any info that needs to be corrected, please do not hesitate to do that, too...LOL Big Grin Those actual selling prices would be interesting to see and if you are able to post them there, that would be great.

It is sad to read about your strata management experiences - it's a big roll of the dice and so very few seem to function well.

Thank you for the welcome Skook. Over the next few days I will post some of the information I have which was taken directly from the BC Assessment Rolls at the time when the actual Land Titles conveyance sale price was able to be viewed. It won't be for all units in both strata corporations but I will dig out what I have in any event and share this. When we were first drawn to the development we were only days away from committing to the purchase of one of the duplex homes where our total outlay including GST then and LTT was going to be slightly more than one million dollars. Today as you know an identical duplex is now priced at $535K as a result of the bankruptcy proceedings against an owner which individual also owns 6490 Ember Place now priced in the low $420+ range. Bankruptcy proceedings or not, the values there overall are profoundly undermined by other matters beyond this unique individual situation. It is almost a two for one sale compared to our own original price considerationSmile. This particular unit on Ember Place was never owner occupied to my knowledge and rented only for a short period of time to tenants. Some owners in both complexes tried or still try to rent their homes for Vacation Rentals which results in a transient ebb and flow of strangers but the SCRD does have an enforceable bylaw preventing these rental periods and occupancies for anything less than one month at a time but only if they receive formal complaints in this regard. A specific business license is also required as a result in most applications. We did eventually purchase a home after all in the second phase which had a very self serving council of three members then all attempting to secure the Common Property lawn boulevard directly in front of their own bungalows on the front row and change its designation to Limited Common Property which effectively would have completely excluded all other owners from its usage and access to the beach directly through the development that would have resulted in having to reply upon the public access entrance only. It is possible this was resurrected by the council again after we sold and as a result any prospective purchaser should pay close attention to this. It took the threat of legal action to prevent the council from doing so in the first instance. I was not displeased to see that one of these owners subsequently sold their beachfront bungalow at a substantial loss themselves. Still a nice spot but I would encourage anyone interested in purchasing to very carefully and thoroughly read and read again in between the lines at least 36 months of council meeting and AGM minutes from both Strata Corporations as they have reciprocal cost sharing and usage agreements between them for pedestrian walk through traffic, sanitary sewage pumping station and back up power for it etc., but more importantly the underground services for the Geothermal System all homes there rely upon and the lengthy contract and costly maintenance and ongoing payment agreement for this.

The views are beautiful though and when it rains those curved metal rooftops transmit through and into the homes a sound that is pleasant for most to listen to but not for all perhaps if you don't appreciate the sound akin to someone tap dancing on your roof. You would also want to predict that sooner or later those garden rooftops could be an expensive repair/replacement expenditure however hopefully the now legislated Strata Property Act Deficiency Inspection Reports and long term funding provision for major matters such as this are also clearly identified for prospective purchasers though the Strata Corporations have until the end of this year to complete this undertaking, so buyer beware otherwise until then.
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10-14-2013, 03:51 PM,
#4
RE: Wakefield Beach
Excellent post, doondog!

I would comment further but I'm beat - been working on a overgrown property for the last few days and I can't think. I will be looking forward to reading more. Great job. Smile
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10-17-2013, 09:02 PM,
#5
RE: Wakefield Beach
A delayed posting of the original sales information I previously mentioned I would provide but here it is. I only have this for Phase 2 otherwise known as Strata Corporation BCS3079. All of this data was obtained from Public Records through The BC Assessment Authority based on The Land Titles Office reporting to it of the original selling prices recorded of the first purchasers of the strata unit. They are further documented by copies of the actual individual Tax Reports issued by the District of Sechelt Taxation Office.

1-6490 Ember Place @ $695K inclusive of GST.
2-6492 Ember Place @ $625K.
3-6494 Ember Place @ $695K
4-6496 Ember Place @ $784K
5-6498 Ember Place @ $598K
6-6500 Ember Place @ $598K

7-6490 Wildflower Place @ $560K
8-6492 Wildflower Place @ $599K
9-6494 Wildflower Place @ $545K
10-6496 Wildflower Place @ $545K
11-6498 Wildflower Place @ $589K
12-6500 Wildflower Place @ $549K

13-6491 Wildflower Place @ $1,135,000
14-6495 Wildflower Place @ $1,250,000
15-6499 Wildflower Place @ $1,375,000

13, 14 & 15 are the three single story detached beachfront homes in BCS3079
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10-18-2013, 07:47 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-18-2013, 07:48 AM by Skook.)
#6
RE: Wakefield Beach
Wow, doondog, do those numbers tell an interesting story. This is how I read them - Phase 2 managed only one sale when the developer began the initial marketing and this would be Unit 4 - 6496 Ember @ $784K. That price fits in with the Fall 2007/Summer 2008 media reports I mention in my first post. However, it still seems so high. I did the best I could trying to interpret my search info and the old Wakefield Beach website indicated these townhomes came in three different square footage. Would that unit 4 be the largest at 1708sf? If so, then I have not got the right square footage and unit numbers matched incorrectly in my table and perhaps you could take a look at it, again, and let me know. On the other hand, with the GST is included in that sell price then I may have lined up the square footage correctly.

Then I would say the next units to sell were the Samji Unit 1 and then Unit 3 both at $695K and then nothing and the developer begins to panic. Of course, the timing couldn't have been worse with the Stock Market crash beginning in the fall of 2007 and extending into spring 2009. So, the developer is dropping the prices. I can't image what the buyer of Unit 4 felt when the remaining units ending up selling for about $200K less.

doondog, would the docs you have indicate the dates the units sold and their square footage? If so, could you post that info for me? I will then take all the info and redo my spreadsheet and calculations for this second phase. Please do this at your convenience as I have plenty to keep me occupied until then.

I have to admit your second post was an eyeopener,too. I didn't even think about how the addition of the GST and the LTT (what is this?) would raise those Phase 1 prices to the point where a duplex price would jump to just over $1mill. So, you are indicating with Phase 2 that the pricing includes the GST - then, in fact, the eventual selling price of those units was that much lower. Wow. This puts the success of this development, at least as far as Phase 2 is concerned, in a whole new light.

With this info and what I have been discovering lately, I am coming to the conclusion that the real estate market collapsed far earlier than I thought and it was throughout all the Sunshine Coast. Thanks, again, doondog, for joining VanPeak and sharing this info.
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10-19-2013, 07:17 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-19-2013, 08:16 PM by doondog.)
#7
RE: Wakefield Beach
(10-18-2013, 07:47 AM)Skook Wrote: Wow, doondog, do those numbers tell an interesting story. This is how I read them - Phase 2 managed only one sale when the developer began the initial marketing and this would be Unit 4 - 6496 Ember @ $784K. That price fits in with the Fall 2007/Summer 2008 media reports I mention in my first post. However, it still seems so high. I did the best I could trying to interpret my search info and the old Wakefield Beach website indicated these townhomes came in three different square footage. Would that unit 4 be the largest at 1708sf? If so, then I have not got the right square footage and unit numbers matched incorrectly in my table and perhaps you could take a look at it, again, and let me know. On the other hand, with the GST is included in that sell price then I may have lined up the square footage correctly.

Then I would say the next units to sell were the Samji Unit 1 and then Unit 3 both at $695K and then nothing and the developer begins to panic. Of course, the timing couldn't have been worse with the Stock Market crash beginning in the fall of 2007 and extending into spring 2009. So, the developer is dropping the prices. I can't image what the buyer of Unit 4 felt when the remaining units ending up selling for about $200K less.

doondog, would the docs you have indicate the dates the units sold and their square footage? If so, could you post that info for me? I will then take all the info and redo my spreadsheet and calculations for this second phase. Please do this at your convenience as I have plenty to keep me occupied until then.

I have to admit your second post was an eyeopener,too. I didn't even think about how the addition of the GST and the LTT (what is this?) would raise those Phase 1 prices to the point where a duplex price would jump to just over $1mill. So, you are indicating with Phase 2 that the pricing includes the GST - then, in fact, the eventual selling price of those units was that much lower. Wow. This puts the success of this development, at least as far as Phase 2 is concerned, in a whole new light.

With this info and what I have been discovering lately, I am coming to the conclusion that the real estate market collapsed far earlier than I thought and it was throughout all the Sunshine Coast. Thanks, again, doondog, for joining VanPeak and sharing this info.

Sorry Skook, Property Purchase Tax is what I meant by LTT, a term used in Ontario for the same taxation and an old habit of calling it that. I do have the unit sizes and will list these as well as the dates for the sales from the public records mentioned that I have access to. You may also be surprised to learn that 6496 is in fact one of the smaller units there though the highest price paid of all the two level units in Phase 2 and a puzzle to many others since then as a result of what the buyer thought initially and afterward about this investment. They do not use the unit for occupancy as it has been a Vacation Rental premises at least certainly during our ownership there. I do not personally have the first sales transaction date for 6490 Ember however do have its interior dimensions to post.

1- 6490 Ember = 1,588 square feet on three levels (147.5 m2)

2-6492 Ember = 1678 square feet on three levels (155.9m2) SOLD 04/01/2010.

3-6494 Ember = 1,725 square feet on three levels (160.3m2) SOLD 10/01/2008

4-6496 Ember = 1,410 square feet on two levels (131m2) SOLD 11/01/2008

5-6498 Ember = 1,590 square feet on two levels (147.8m2) SOLD 10/01/2008

6-6500 Ember = 1,410 square feet on two levels (131m2) SOLD 11/01/2008

7-6490 Wildflower = 1,411 square feet on two levels (131.1m2) SOLD 08/01/2009

8-6492 Wildflower = 1,509 square feet on two levels (140.2m2) SOLD 06/01/2009

9-6494 Wildflower = 1,410 square feet on two levels (131m2) SOLD 01/01/2010

10-6496 Wildflower = 1,414 square feet on two levels (131.4m2) SOLD 03/01/2010

11-6498 Wildflower = 1,504 square feet on two levels (139.8m2) SOLD 03/01/2009

12-6500 Wildflower = 1,411 square feet on two levels (131.1m2) SOLD 12/01/2009

13-6491 Wildflower = 1,594 square feet on one level (148.1m2) SOLD 07/12/2009

14-6495 Wildflower = 1,594 square feet on one level (148.1m2) SOLD 04/05/2009

15-6499 Wildflower + 1,594 square feet on one level (148.1m2)
SOLD 01/08/2009.

The last three units listed are the beachfront single level detached homes. These are identical for the most part except for their location in the development however side by side otherwise. The first one sold in January of 2009 @ $1,375,000, the second one in April @ $1,250,000 and the third and last one in July of 2009 @ $1,135,000 based on the public records. Quite the price adjustments within the short span of seven months for these it would appear.

Please note that all the measurements are taken directly from the final registered Strata Plan filed in the Land Titles Office for BCS3079 with all individual strata unit interior dimensions identified and certified as such by a BC Land Surveyor as to their final and actual dimensions as compared to the original sales literature offerings and promotional material.
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10-20-2013, 08:48 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-20-2013, 08:53 AM by Skook.)
#8
RE: Wakefield Beach
Fantastic info, doondog! Thank you for taking the time to put it together and posting it. I will redo my spreadsheet at the earliest opportunity and repost it in my thread.

I’m sitting here thinking about the poor sods that bought Unit 4 - 6496 Ember. So, according to your data, Unit 6 - 6500 Ember sold the same day for almost $200K less (including GST) - same height, same square footage. So, how could this happen? I have these thoughts on this.

Presales for Phase 2 began in the Fall, 2007 - right when the stock market went belly up. You can see by your sold date data that none of these units began moving until almost a year later when investors began to feel more confident the world was not ending as a result of the financial mess in the States. By this time, Phase 2 construction would have been nearing completion,too (late 2008/early 2009?).

Now, Phase 2 sales were handled strictly by the developer (as initially with Phase 1) and not one unit was ever listed on MLS during the pre-construction phase; therefore, I assume the developer then is at liberty to set and sell at whatever price he wants. Also, the developer (any developer) wants to send the message that the development is a ripping success if possible and you do so by selling your units. So, here is the big question…who bought units 5 & 6? Were these buyers known to the developer? Were the buyers perhaps Realtors? With either scenario, the developer might have given them a deal on the price as a means to help spur sells - better to lose a little profit early if it helps to sell out the development in the long run. What is interesting to note here is that the first “flip” of any unit in Phase 2 occurs in 2011 and it is Unit 5 - 6498 Ember. It was listed for $569,500 (original purchase price if you remove the GST?) and sold on May 16, 2011 for $552,500. (Question - would the initial buyer of this unit have applied for and received a GST rebate - I believe this can be done if the purchase is for a primary residence.)

I wonder if the buyer of Unit 4 had been represented by a Realtor as a go-between with the developer if this situation could have been avoided. Unit 5 sold one month earlier and though its purchase price was not available through MLS, the sale would still have had to been registered. A Realtor could have performed a title search perhaps on any units sold previously and better to pay a Realtor a small commission then overpay by $200K. Now, I am only guessing this might be possible and I honestly don’t know for sure if this would have helped. I can only image how the buyer of Unit 4 felt after learning what the other units sold for - sick to their stomach, I am sure.

doondog, if you have anything at all you would like to post about in the Sunshine Coast forum - like your thoughts on living in Sechelt at the time, your experiences with geothermal heating (its pluses and minuses which would be very interesting!), anything at all - please feel free to jump aboard! It's not so lonely here now that you and punnoval have begun to share your thoughts and experiences...Big Grin
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10-20-2013, 10:45 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-20-2013, 10:57 AM by doondog.)
#9
RE: Wakefield Beach
You are welcome for the information Skook, I hope it is of some help to you and others reading the forum for their own considerations.

We enjoyed our Sunshine Coast and Sechelt living during the time that we were there including owning a property further up towards the Pender Harbour area as well. Both were beautiful spots but we were not paying close enough attention to the underlying conditions in the real estate market to recognize things were far from stable there at either end of the coast. Watching prices drop and properties listed forever it seemed caused us as it would most serious concern and we sold both of our places and returned to the lower mainland but do miss the calm and serenity of the Sunshine Coast. We don't miss the ferry system though as it always felt like we had a curfew imposed upon our travel plans let alone the increasing cost and often frustration of the entire system itself as charming as the short ride to or from Horseshoe Bay is. I miss that sodium laced gravy though on those expensive french fries on the ferrySmile Yummy otherwise!

We found the people friendly everywhere for the most part but as an outsider you never quite were accepted as a local regardless it seemed of how long you owned property there either on a permanent residence basis or a recreation usage. Things are expensive there though as there is little competition amongst retailers such as on the Mainland and sometimes if you needed something around the house or elsewhere right away you would have to order it in and wait for it or until the next trip off the coast.

The Geothermal was very nice to use and surprisingly efficient but at the Wakefield I don't believe the Property Managers and Councils properly or adequately service the homes systems as they are required to do under the service contract with the original supplier of the system used by both complexes. This may have changed but at BCS3079 the Council initially was completely unaware of the need and their responsibility to do so right down to the supply of the filters for the systems from unit to unit. These are not inexpensive to repair or replace as and when necessary and hopefully they have adopted a better approach to the regular inspections and maintenance for these and budgeting for the future in this regard. I would live where these type of heating/cooling systems were originally installed again but as a consumer I don't think I would make the costly expenditure to have a system installed believing personally that the true cost benefits take an extraordinary time to adjust and balance themselves out.

We have considered returning to the coast to capture a lower cost of living by virtue of the current property pricing but have no true sense of where a bottom might be for anything up there regardless of what or where it is and knowing full well that selling afterward can be a disappointing and expensive proposition and a financial risk to anyone as the stats and data the past few years support. I am aware of properties further up in the Garden Bay/Daniel Point area that have been listed now in excess of 5 years with no takers and if not mistaken there is a statistical supply in excess of 8+ years of vacant serviced building lots available. Pender Harbour Landing and Whittakers are just two examples of this and both beautiful projects but very few homes built even 6+ years after their completion and at Whittakers 4 out of the 6 homes actually ever constructed are currently listed for sale on the MLS and my best wishes to anyone trying to recover their initial capital outlay for these as nice as they are. I think the developer still has 9 unsold lots remaining and they have been unsold for many years since the inception of the project. The same holds true for Sakinaw Ridge where some of the prime lots such as No.21 languish for buyers at half their original listing prices and a subsequent insolvency of the first developer. Few homes have been built 6 years past the asphalt being placed and again a lovely and scenic setting for those that chose to build and live or vacation there themselves so far. As many may be aware some of these lots sold a while back at a Ritchie Brothers Auction for what appeared to be bargain basement prices but once placed back on the MLS and resale market for a quick flip proved otherwise as the sales data once again will prove.

In keeping with this and in respect of the new waterfront twin condo development in the heart of Sechelt why anyone would spend significant capital for some of the very high end units all the while and with sincere respect co-living with subsidized housing amongst it so I understand is beyond me personally though I do recognize and appreciate the need for affordable housing especially on the coast for those less fortunate so it is a classic Catch 22 I suppose. Reading and comprehending all of the terms and conditions of its DISCLOSURE STATEMENTS are critical and it is Caveat Emptor otherwise or buyer beware in simpler terms. Few buyers ever read these critical documents carefully enough even though they have to endorse their signatures for a purchase agreement that they had and understood all that was set out. They are the Blueprint to a development if you will and I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard someone say "I didn't know" yet out there somewhere is their own signature verifying that they did. Only time will tell how this plays out. Strata life so commonly turns out to be strata strife! I would not be in a hurry to get your money back out of any of these investments either anytime soon so you better want to live in or use these for recreational usage and set aside any notion of a quick or beneficial investment return at least in the foreseeable future I suspect. I hope I am proven wrong but for now my hand remains firmly placed on my chequebook while in doubt.

Aside from that it is worth exploring either as a vacation visitor or for those considering retirement with the hospital in Sechelt expanding and respected. Clearly though it is not a young persons place to stay forever and there is a very greying demographic to its residents and citizens and they tend not to spend a lot of money to keep local business alive and thriving as they require in order to do so even though everyone does support these as best they can when and where possible. I don't think a Costco is coming to the coast anytime soonSmile

Thank you for your own hard work in researching and posting your own material here Skook, it too has been a real eye opener for us and appreciated very much as I hope others that read it do as well.

Back again another timeSmile

Take care,

doondog,
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10-20-2013, 11:15 AM, (This post was last modified: 10-20-2013, 11:16 AM by Skook.)
#10
RE: Wakefield Beach
Excellent post, doondog, thank you in all respects.

I began researching Pender Harbour back in January and posting that research is why I joined the forum. Sometime, soon, I hope to move further up the coast and elaborate on all that you have mentioned above.

I, too, miss the SC so very, very much. The Pender area is unique especially if you reach out and get to know the locals who have called it home for years and generations. The stories they have to tell!

All the best, doondog, and I hope to see you back in the forum when the mood strikes you or if you feel you can add to my PH posts whenever they get written up and posted...Huh
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